A Date with Darkness

Welcome to A Date With Darkness Podcast. This podcast is dedicated to those who have been hurt by love and abuse, through their relationships with narcissistic people.

The purpose of the podcast is to deepen the understanding of hurtful and traumatic relationships which have been a source of unspoken pain and trauma.

The podcast features thoughtful discussions around abuse dynamics, mental health and relationships. I offer education, tips and resources for healing from abusive relationships. If you have a question about the podcast or you want to get in touch with me directly, please feel free to email me at hello@drnataliejones.com. Thank you so much for listening!

Listen on:

COCSA, Featuring Sam Dordulian, Esq.

Sam Dordulian, Esq. and I sat down to discuss the phenomenon of COCSA child on child sexual assault, and steps that you can take when your child experiences abuse including contacting the police, child protective services, or a legal representative.

*If you or someone that you know are experiencing COCSA, child on childe sexual assault, please contact your local police department.*

Visit Sam Dordulian, Esq.’s website here -> Samuel Dordulian |
Former Deputy District Attorney

*Please note: Information provided on this episode are
general suggestions and is not applicable to every situation or person. This
episode may not be suitable for everyone, and the information provided should
not be substituted for treatment with a licensed mental health practitioner.
Some of the information discussed on the podcast can be sensitive in nature,
therefore listener discretion is advised. The opinions of the guests on A Date
with Darkness Podcast are independent of the opinions of Dr. Natalie Jones,
PsyD, LPCC.

For more information on the podcast visit
www.adatewithdarkness.com Email Dr. Jones at admin@drnataliejones.com

Want more information and tips about narcissistic abuse and
how to heal? Visit www.drnataliejones.com and sign up for the newsletter and
get the free e-book on Red Flags in Your Relationship.

If you are interested in individual and group membership
coaching sessions with Dr. Jones, slots will be opening soon. Join the mailing
list to be the first in the know when the program launches, click https://www.healingwithdrjones.com/signup.

To connect with others who are seeking support from hurtful
and abusive relationships please join the Facebook group: A Date With Darkness
group here https://www.facebook.com/groups/196036654267594/

If you are interested in counseling, consulting, corporate
wellness, or public speaking services from Dr. Natalie Jones, visit
www.drnataliejones.com If you like what you heard, leave a podcast rating and
review HERE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-date-with-darkness-podcast/id1271234927

Representing Survivors of Sexual Abuse with Sam Dordulian

Sam Dordulian, Esq. and I sat down to discuss digital coercion,
and steps that you can take when being threatened with sextortion.

*If you or someone that you know are experiencing image abuse
or sextortion, please contact your local police department.*

Visit Sam Dordulian, Esq.’s website here -> Samuel Dordulian |
Former Deputy District Attorney

For more information on the podcast visit
www.adatewithdarkness.com Email Dr. Jones at admin@drnataliejones.com

Want more information and tips about narcissistic abuse and
how to heal? Visit www.drnataliejones.com and sign up for the newsletter and
get the free e-book on Red Flags in Your Relationship.

To connect with others who are seeking support from hurtful
and abusive relationships please join the Facebook group: A Date With Darkness
group here https://www.facebook.com/groups/196036654267594/

196. Desire for a Partner

Many have a desire for a partner and it is okay to want to get married and to seek partnership. If you feel desperation, you need to get to the root and understand why you feel desperate or hopeless about finding the right person.

Watch the video podcast on Youtube: A Date With Darkness

Email questions or comments to Dr. Jones admin@drnataliejones.com

Sign up for the free ebook on Red Flags in Your Relationships and the free weekly newsletter for tips about narcissistic abuse at www.drnataliejones.com

Individual and group membership coaching sessions opening soon. Get on the mailing list to be the first to know here.

Visit the website for more information: https://www.adatewithdarkness.com

Let’s keep the conversation going via social media:
Instagram: A Date With Darkness
Twitter: @Adatewdarkness
Facebook: A Date With Darkness
To connect with others who are seeking support from hurtful and abusive relationships please join the Facebook group: A Date With Darkness group

195. Rediscovering Self After Trauma; Featuring Lyvonne Briggs

Welcome to the eighth and last episode of the series “The Lost Episodes”. In this episode, Lyvonne Briggs and I dive into the complexities of trauma, healing, and liberation. From confronting family secrets to decolonizing spirituality and reclaiming sexuality, this conversation offers insights on breaking free from generational cycles and finding joy beyond trauma.

Watch the video podcast on YouTube: A Date With Darkness

Email questions or comments to Dr. Jones admin@drnataliejones.com

Sign up for the free e-book on Red Flags in Your Relationships and the free weekly newsletter for tips about narcissistic abuse at www.drnataliejones.com

Individual and group membership coaching sessions opening soon. Get on the mailing list to be the first to know here.

Visit the website for more information: https://www.adatewithdarkness.com

Podcast Transcript

Dr. Natalie Jones | 00:10.902
Welcome to a Date with Darkness podcast, where I will be discussing the impact of hurtful and abusive relationships and how to overcome them. So that you can move through your pain and get to the kind of healthy relationships you want, need and deserve. I’m Dr. Natalie Jones. I’m a licensed psychotherapist. Based in California. While I hope that you find this podcast educational and informational, please note it should not be substituted for treatment with a licensed mental health professional. Also, due to the nature of the podcast, some of the information presented on this show can be sensitive to some of my listeners. So, please note that listener discretion is advised. Hi, Lyvonne. Welcome to the show. How are you?

Lyvonne Briggs | 00:59.712
Hi, Dr. Natalie. I’m magnificent. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 01:04.296
I am so excited to have you on. I think it’s going to be a great show. You bring such a great energy.

Lyvonne Briggs | 01:11.807
Thank you. I appreciate that. You know, life, life is too short to not stay vibing high. So whatever I have to do to protect my peace, honey, baby, I’m going to do it.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 01:21.018
There you go. I love that. You know, especially during a time like. Right now, where the world seems to be in a lot of just sort of chaos and pandemonium.

Lyvonne Briggs | 01:33.762
Yeah. The thing is, is that two truths can be true at the same time, right? Life can be gory and gorgeous at the same damn time. And I think as women, particularly Black women, but women, women of color, especially Black women, we get to lean into that. Both and-ness instead of a very colonized, westernized mindset of either or. Like, just because the world is in shambles, don’t tell me that my life needs to be in shambles. Because the way my ancestors are set up, the way my spiritual belief system is set up.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 02:07.746
I love that. Thank you.

Lyvonne Briggs | 02:09.449
Yeah, of course.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 02:11.832
This is under five minutes.

Lyvonne Briggs | 02:14.230
OK, that’s the kind of show it’s going to be. Praise the Lord. Hallelujah. So,

Dr. Natalie Jones | 02:20.637
Lyvonne, for people that don’t know you, tell us who you are. What you do and the passion behind your work.

Lyvonne Briggs | 02:28.620
Yeah, my name is Lavon Briggs. I am the daughter of Caribbean immigrants. I am a Queens girl and a joy chaser. And I am a Black woman spiritual leader who is no longer at war with her body. And so the work that I do is to carve out space for Black women in particular, but women because… The issues around sensuality, sexuality, our bodies, our faith traditions clearly transcends racial and socioeconomic lines. Also, and I’m a woman that’s Black. Okay. So I speak from my experience and I’m carving out space for us to come home to our bodies.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 03:14.423
Okay. Say more about that.

Lyvonne Briggs | 03:17.936
Sure. So if you’re anything like me, you were raised in a tradition that was religious in a way that didn’t integrate your being. Right. So this very platonic thinking about how the body and the spirit, or soul, if that’s language you would like to use, are separate, completely different beings. And that the spirit. Is good or holy? And that the body is bad or evil, which if you are in a Black woman identified body is even more politicized, right? And so this is a liberative movement that centers womanist thought to say that the experiences, vantage points, and perspectives of Black women matter. And that there is no system, religious, spiritual, social, political, or otherwise, that should have the power to bifurcate us in our bodies. Your body and your spirit are inseparable. Neither is good or bad. They are both good and you are good. And so that is the premise. That’s the thesis. That’s the main point. That’s the golden nugget is that we are inherently good. And a lot of religious traditions did not teach us that.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 04:44.084
I like that. And for context, can you tell us what was your religious background?

Lyvonne Briggs | 04:50.604
Sure. So I was raised in the Christian church. I was a part of the episcopal faith when I was growing up. And I shifted to a more charismatic Pentecostal tradition when I was in college. And then landed with some social justice minded Baptists when I was in graduate school. And I started my own Instagram church during the height of the pandemic. And now I’m floating around. I’m a spiritual butterfly. So that’s sort of my religious journey. Okay.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 05:27.671
And were you from North, South, East, West?

Lyvonne Briggs | 05:31.077
I am originally from New York City.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 05:32.780
Okay. Okay. Okay. So thanks for putting that into perspective. And as far as when you were up and coming, little black girl, tell us what were… Some of the teachings or the messages that you received early on about your body that were not positive?

Lyvonne Briggs | 06:01.692
That’s a really great question. Here’s the interesting thing. I didn’t hear a lot of messaging around my body when I was a little girl. For all my fellow first gen students, from immigrant families, you know that education is the number one tip top item on the list, right? It wasn’t, are you going to school or college? It’s where are you going to school or college? And so school became my safe haven, because that was where I was putting all of my focus, energy, and attention. Now, I wasn’t receiving messaging from any of my spiritual or social communities about my body, but I was definitely receiving, it’s not even messaging, Dr. Daly, that’s not what I can say it. But I experienced physical and sexual abuse at the hands of my biological father. There was cognitive dissonance because while… I wasn’t hearing anything in the world that was telling me that my body was bad. I was experiencing ongoing abuse that made me feel a lot of shame and guilt and badness, quote unquote, around my body. The messaging about my body didn’t start until or let me back up. Let me rephrase that. The messaging that I received around my body, that did not help me, but harm me. I didn’t start to have exposure to that until middle school. I would say, because when I was in middle school, so let me back up. When I was in elementary school, I was in an all Black school. There were like two white sisters, but everybody was black. And then when I was in middle school, in seventh grade, I was in a globally mixed class. Like, there was a girl from Honduras. There was a guy from Pakistan there, right? We were from all over. And so they plucked me out of that group. And put me into the advanced academic, you know, my talented and gifted Magnet School students. I see y’all, they put me in that. And so I ended up being the only Black girl in this class of all white and Asian kids. Now there was one other Black girl, but she was from France. And so culturally, we didn’t connect. So I didn’t consider her Black. So we could have a whole conversation about what it means to be culturally Black. And the diaspora and all that, right? But I remember I was sitting there talking about how my mom was going to wash my hair that weekend. And this white girl with blonde hair, blue eyes and braces overheard my conversation. And she said, ew, you only wash your hair every two weeks? And I looked at her, like, girl, my hair is not like your hair. Your hair gets greasy and oily. Like, if… The second, you don’t wash it, right? We have two different hair types. And so that was the first time that I realized. Other people were looking at my body in ways that made it seem like it was less than compared to theirs. Right. And this is my peer. And so that was one of the first moments where I was like, okay, so I’m not tripping about this abuse that I’m experiencing at home. Like, it feels wrong in my body, but no one’s talking about good touch, bad touch. If someone touches you, come to me. Let me. That wasn’t a conversation. Right.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 09:28.512
Maybe that was actually the first experience about black bodies. The fact that nobody was really educating you about touch and what’s appropriate and what’s not appropriate.

Lyvonne Briggs | 09:45.517
So we could have the conversation about what was lacking, for sure. And I think that is something that we have been seeing happen. more, particularly within the Black community, is empowering children and giving them tools and agency over their bodies. You know, all that. Go give your auntie a hug. Go give your uncle a hug. Like, no, if a child doesn’t want to hug even a family member, that is OK. And so I’m glad to see that we are creating new generational patterns within parenting in the Black community, for sure.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 10:21.428
Absolutely. So I think there’s, you know, there’s a lot of ways in which our bodies are treated. That may actually speak to a lot of what goes on systemically now, for sure, in terms of body movement now. I mean, it might be, again, not having agencies. Or sort of the ostracizing of, you know, how you care for yourself or how things are different, not with people not trying to understand, but sort of ostracizing that it sounds like.

Lyvonne Briggs | 10:58.289
Yeah. And the thing is, is that when you start to uncover abuse in Black communities, there has been. A systemic sweeping under the rugness that we are now reckoning with, right? And I think it’s for a number of reasons. Go ahead.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 11:21.175
Can you speak more about the systemic sweeping under the rug? Because I do agree with you. There is a systemic sort of sweeping under the rug of the abuse that’s experienced.

Lyvonne Briggs | 11:33.511
Well, sure. Many Black families have this idea that what happens in this house stays in this house. And that comes from… From the illusion of white supremacy and that we need to make ourselves seem presentable and acceptable, right, to outsiders. So anything that would make us seem like we are less than, right, That’s where the whole idea of your Sunday best comes from. Because for Black folks who were enslaved, formerly enslaved, or for folks, you know, post antebellum, their, excuse me, post bellum. Let me say that thought again. So, whether it was our formerly enslaved ancestors or Black folks after the war, after quote unquote, emancipation, you know, if you’re in overalls and work clothes and scrubbing floors and building railroads and all that. Monday through Friday, or even Saturday, come Sunday, you were able to put on your finest dress and suit and hat. And, you know, you weren’t boy, you weren’t nigger. You were. mister, you were deacon, you were sister, so-and-so. And so that’s where we started to get this idea that we have to present ourselves in a particular way as the picture-perfect family. And so for Black people who experience abuse within the family system, right, incest, which I want to come back to, that word, but there’s the duality of it. Because this person is harming me, but they also say that they love me. This person is abusing me, but they provide for me. This person is clearly sick, but they show me love in other ways. So it’s very confusing, right? And so I think that’s why many of us, in an effort not to make our family look bad, we just never talked about it. So that’s what leads to the just keep it swept under the rug. And ideas. Coming from religious platitudes like, oh, well, it happens to everybody, or God won’t put more of you than you can bear. Just forgive and forget, let go and let God like that. That’s insufficient at best, and a sin at worst to say that to survivors. So for me, when I think about this word incest, particularly within a Christian tradition, we use such family-oriented language. We talk about being the body of Christ. That’s my sister in Christ, my brother in Christ, right? That kind of language. So then it really makes you think, well, family is not just someone who’s related to me by blood. This is a family friend. This is someone who I adore. This is a part of my social or spiritual kin. And so we get to really broaden this concept. And I think that’s scary for many people because then they have to admit that they were harmed by kinfolk, right, to do that. And so I’ll close this part because this is a very multilayered conversation, as you know, we can hear that. When we are, when? When cases of incest are revealed, it’s horrifying for bystanders because they have to do two things. They first have to honor that the perpetrator is a perpetrator. Right. And people do not like it when their image of someone is shattered. But then, too, they’ll also have to come to terms with the harm that they themselves have experienced, like the minimizing and the suppressing. That’s happened because it wasn’t that bad. It wasn’t penetration. You know, I don’t go to that school anymore. All the coping mechanisms that we enact just to stay functional, that those also come crashing down. And, you know, we don’t like to be out of control, Dr. Natalie.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 15:39.292
It’s true. There is something about the family image that wants to stay intact, or out of control, or not letting anybody be in your business. I’m curious to hear how your situation went.

Lyvonne Briggs | 15:59.827
Let’s see. So I told my best friend about the abuse when I was 16 years old, and she encouraged me to tell my mom. And I didn’t. And then when I was dating a man, when I was 19 years old, I told him about the abuse. And he called the house one night in a drunken stupor. And my mom answered the phone, and he said, tell Yvonne’s father to keep his hands off her. And so I’m a first year college student. I get home late from a night class. And my mom is like, did your father touch you? Like, as soon as I walk in the house and I was just like, what? So I was like, Are you really ready to have this conversation? And so. For those of us who have had these moments where there’s a reckoning in the family, there was a big kerfuffle that night. Like, two of his sisters came over, you know, they were trying to support my mother through this. My sibling was there. It was just chaotic. I remember that. But the wild part is, is that we didn’t talk about it again after that night. And I’ve heard that story over and over, where it’s like, yeah, it came out. and, you know, there were tears and there was rage and people were upset. And then we just never spoke of it again. Well, needless to say, I was no longer interested in being a cast member in this very dysfunctional play, but was real life. And so ultimately, what I needed to do for myself was to distance myself from my. Bio Dad and his side of the family, Because I refuse to sit around on holidays talking about politics and history and art and culture and travel and dancing and eating. Without addressing this really horrible, grotesque tradition in our own family, right? Because that’s another thing. A lot of times, this intergenerational trauma is not just actual incidents, because we do find, oh, that happened to my mom. It happened to my grandma. Like, how far back does this go? But also, how far back does this go? Right. When you’re talking about post-traumatic slave syndrome by Dr. Joy Degruy and epigenetics, and how trauma literally mutates your DNA and lives in your body. We have to understand that as African descended women, there is an extra layer that we are scraping off and shedding when it comes to our healing. And so it really, you know, benefits us and behooves us to be very, very gentle with ourselves.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 18:39.758
Absolutely. And I think, you know, your pain sounds like there’s several layers of the trauma. I mean, first of all, your boyfriend at the time sort of ousting you in a way that was inappropriate. And then also, you know, just having to go through and tell your mom, which. You know, and you stop me if this story gets too personal for you. But sort of, you know, going through all of the emotional stuff of the family. Only to never be, you know, spoken to about this or checked in about or, or even just sort of validated about? Almost like this thing happened. And I’m sure that a lot of people in your situation have gone through the same thing, like you said, with the rug.

Lyvonne Briggs | 19:37.025
And so there were years and years of choosing myself, of not going home for the holidays. Of ignoring the phone calls, of changing my phone number, right? And at the same time, I was also navigating my own faith journey and saying, okay, well, if the being that has been presented to me has been called God, the Father for so long, and father does not mean protector, provider. In my context, what then, what then? What then does the Divine God source light, universe, energy mean for me? And so I set out on my own path, and I had a very evangelical experience, right? Where I got to throw myself into this very strict, rigid, legalistic tradition that made it safe for me. Because it was very clear do this, don’t do that. And I needed that part of my faith journey for where I was in undergrad. But I soon started to have questions about the Bible, about all of these rules and regulations. And so I ended up going to Yale Divinity School. And while I was there, I got introduced to Black Liberation theology and womanist theology, you know, and so just starting to trouble the waters and really honoring that my faith tradition was born in Africa. And somehow got co-opted and colonized and whitewashed. And it was like, well, hold on. What did my ancestors believe about God before the colonizers brought their white Jesus? And so I felt liberated. Because if I can experience the radical interrogation of my faith, if I can create family outside of my blood relatives, what, what can’t I do? Right. Family and faith are, like two of the biggest components in people’s lives. And here I am co-creating something wonderful and whimsical that is based on my pleasure and my joy. Instead of, and I think, you know, my creator and my ancestors, my community for this, instead of living a life based in my trauma. And that’s where many of us get stuck.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 22:10.486
Yes.

Lyvonne Briggs | 22:10.886
This is just how I am. This is just the way it is. I’ve always been. You haven’t always been this way. Who are you? Who are you before the trauma? Who were you before the abuse, before the conditioning, before the socialization? That you is still in you and you have to fight. You have to duel. Okay. And you have to surround yourself with people who are going to help you plug back into that person. Because in my belief system, in African cosmology, we believe that you, for better or for worse, agree to the timeline that you encounter in this life. Even the abuse, even the abuse. Because what we agree to is going to serve not just us, but our lineage and the collective. And the thing is, is that we get stuck in the incident. We get stuck in the coping mechanisms and not tap into our tools.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 23:17.768
What was that timeline like for you?

Lyvonne Briggs | 23:23.339
Okay, so I first tried therapy with a Catholic priest when I was 19 years old, after that blow up of an incident, and it didn’t vibe with me. So I was like, this doesn’t work, but that wasn’t therapy. So. Anyone who has tried counseling with a religious leader and you think you have gone to therapy, that wasn’t therapy. Bless your heart. I try therapy when I was in college. You know, they offer mental health counseling for students. But at my school, it was like some white grad students who were getting their hours. So it didn’t feel set. You know, you know, like, like, Jell-o got a set. It didn’t feel set when I was in there. And that was when I had my really radical religious conversion experience. So I was very much one of those. I have Jesus in my life. I don’t need anything else at that time. So that was early 2000s. Then I go through eight years of just being like a born again Christian, doing all the things, child evangelizing, trying to get people saved. That was me. And for folks who know my work. I’m sure that amuses you, but you know, they don’t call it a journey for nothing. And so. After that, I was working in entertainment, and I knew that I wanted to do something besides just look at scripts and screens all day in production. And started to discern my own path to seminary. And I started Yale Divinity School in 2009. Now, in 2012, when I graduated, I had started a group. Counseling session for female graduate students who were also survivors. And being in a group context was helpful because it’s like, first of all, you know exactly what the hell I’m going through. Love that for us because a lot of times we just want to be seen and understood and believed. That’s it. That’s all. But I was missing the one-on-one component. And so around 2013, I was in another graduate program, and they actually allocated funds for students to go see a therapist. Which was fantastic. So I was able to add, you know, five, 10, $15 here and there, because they subsidize the cost of therapy. And so I left a voicemail at the Georgia Care and Counseling Center in Decatur, Georgia, say, Hey, my name is Lyvonne. This is what I’m dealing with. Thanks. And didn’t expect anything to come of it, but got a phone call from this white woman. And I was like, what is she going to teach me? And she taught me absolutely everything. So when it comes to finding a therapist, I know as a Black woman. You really want a Black woman, but be open to who the universe is sending you. Because, you know, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear, and it could be an Asian man. Like, you just never know who’s going to have the space to hold for your. You just never know who’s going to have the space to hold for your breakthrough.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 26:31.955
I love that. And I agree with you. You never know what the universe is going to send you in terms of. It sounds like you let go of your family. Was it all because of how they handled the situation? That after your boyfriend at the time sort of outed the incident, or do you think there were more layers to that as well?

Lyvonne Briggs | 26:58.380
So the boyfriend outing, I was at NYU. So that was like, 2000, 2000, 2001, somewhere in there. Um, so this is, you know, 20 years in the making child. Um, after that, there had been some, I don’t know, I don’t even know what to call it. Like, time is a funny thing, right? When I’m thinking about the timeline, what I remember are major events, that sort of, I forgot who I heard say this, what spiraled me upward. And when I started therapy, that was a huge, huge boulder being lifted for me. And from that point on, it was a matter of me continuing to graduate to different therapists, who would have different keys for me to unlock different doors. Right. So don’t feel like, you know, you have to be with one therapist for 30 years. I mean, if that happens, great. I would be surprised. But if you do move around every couple of years, that’s great. And even the therapist that I have now, I’m like, I want her to be my therapist for. The rest of my days. I don’t know what that looks like. So, yeah, 2013 is when I really started going to therapy. seriously, decolonizing my religion and liberating my Christianity and my spirituality, learning ancient and indigenous concepts around the divine feminine, around goddesses, around bodies, right? Because when I look to my ancestors… I learned that women would use their buttocks in worship. Women would bear their breasts at the sun as an act of worship and gratitude. And so when we look at music videos or hip hop culture, we see twerking. Twerking is not new. Winding up your waist For my Caribbean folk, walking up and winding up is not new. It’s just that, because our bodies have been hypersexualized thanks to colonizers and the dehumanization and demonization of Black women’s bodies, we’ve been conditioned to believe that any way that our body moves naturally, even if it’s just developing, is evil or bad. And something to cover up. And that’s just not true.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 29:21.687
Walk me through the process of how you began to rediscover your body as a beautiful temple.

Lyvonne Briggs | 29:31.704
How, period? So that started when I started to have conversations about sex. Many of us, if we are. Currently, or formerly, church heard things like, if you have sex before marriage, you’re going to hell, right? That’s not true. I just want to state that clearly. But when I was in a relationship in 2012, you know, we were together for about six months. When I started to obviously want to have sex, slash, make love to the man that I am happily attached to. And that’s when I started to challenge my theology. And so the first time that we had sex. I rolled over and cried because I felt so much shame. And I’ve learned that shame does not come from the divine. Shame comes from people. Being able to express love in the ways that feel good to me and that are ethical and healthy and aligned and consensual is my birthright, right? There is something that happens to a woman who is amputated from her sexuality. There is disempowerment, disenfranchisement, the removal of agency. And so the function of patriarchy is to make sure that we don’t know our power as women. And so a woman who owns her sexuality is a threat to the system. And so that is our goal is to scare the hell out of the patriarchy and to destroy it. Right. So once I started to see how all of that was designed to put me at war with my body, I was like, how can I? Surrender to my body as quickly as possible. Because the moment that I do that, the moment that I realized that my humanity is my divinity. And wrapped in beautiful, melanated chocolate flesh, the sooner I can get to joy. And so decolonizing and liberating my Christianity was important. Reclaiming my African spiritual base and practices were important. Healing my sexual trauma was important. And all of that has helped me to love myself unapologetically. And that is the frequency that I’m on. And that’s where I heal and evolve and align and align so I can stay there.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 31:48.844
I love that. And, you know, I think what you’re speaking to also is something that, you know, a lot of the folks that I’ve worked with have struggled with in that. Their religion, or their spirit, or I’ll say religion, because it’s usually more of the strict following as opposed to their spirituality. It comes from a place of oppression when it comes to, you know, your body and sex. However, it’s only with women. It’s not usually with men that I’ve noticed this with. Only women have that sort of that good girl who follows the Bible and who’s loved in the eyes of God. Must not be a sexual being, must not have feelings, must not present herself in a certain way.

Lyvonne Briggs | 32:47.021
Right. Well, think about it. The Black Church is 85% Black women. Black church leadership is not 85% Black women. And so we have to think very critically about who is preaching these messages. Where are they coming from and why they want to preach that, right? There’s a queer theologian, my colleague named Zan West, and she always poses this question. Who does it serve for you to believe it this way? Who does it serve for you to believe that your body is inherently bad, evil, gory, right? Something to be tamed, beaten, shrunken. When your birthright is to take up space. In the words of affirmation musician Tony Jones, take up spaces. And so when we think about these religions, when we think of religion, we typically think of Christianity and we think of Christianity. It’s usually a white American nationalist, supremacist, anti-Black, anti-woman, anti-queer, anti-body, anti-fun, you know, belief system. But the fact of the matter is, when you look at the historical Christ figure. He was, in the words of Reverend Dr. Matt King Carter, a nigga from Nazareth. He was a Black man. The point is, is that an African male bodied individual came as a representative of the divine. A man with flesh, hair, nipples, a penis, an anus, toes, like literally anatomically correct body parts. Right. And so for people who love to talk about this particular being in history, so much. They sure stray away from talking about bodily functions when it comes to him walking the earth. And so what we have to do is say, there isn’t going to be a Scripture in the Bible that says, I masturbate for the glory of God, right? That’s just not gonna be there. But when we think about divine design, when we think about the higher power as being good, when we think about creation being a reflection of divine intelligence and being good, That means, as bearers of the gorgeous, glorious, illustrious, clitoris, that… We are the only creatures in all of creation to possess an organ that has one soul delicious function. You mean to tell me that divine intelligence is going to give me a clitoris and then tell me that I’m not supposed to experience pleasure? Unless it’s a heterosexual marriage for procreation? Come on now. Clitoris don’t got nothing to do with the uterus, the fallopian tubes, the ovaries, or even sperm cells. We don’t. Need men to enjoy pleasure? And that is why they try to keep us away from our clitoris. Because if you discovered your clitoris, there are a lot of men who would lose their power over you. No,

Dr. Natalie Jones | 35:56.492
well, the question I have is, I, you know, I don’t disagree with you at all, but I wonder if, you know? I imagine that there’s women out there that may listen to you, kind of at the space where you may have been way back when, when they’re at the church, feeling very oppressed, and they’re, they’re, they’re having these feelings. I’m curious if you can sort of speak to, okay, how do you know, how, how will a woman know that? Okay. How does she know that she’s a oppressed and that what she’s being taught is hurting her? Versus that she’s just being a good follower and doing what she’s supposed to do.

Lyvonne Briggs | 36:49.019
What a thoughtful question, Dr. Natalie. So here’s the thing about women. Our intuition is par excellence, and religious conditioning teaches us not to trust our bodies, indirectly teaching us not to trust our intuition. But our intuition is the key. Our intuition is God in you. It’s your ancestors in you. It’s your higher self in you. And so the idea that we cannot trust our bodies, right, that the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it? In this flesh dwells no good thing. I was, you know, shaped in iniquity and born into sin. Like, you just get all these messages about how horrendous you are. But then you’re going to turn around and tell me how good God is. If God is good and God made me, how can I be bad? And so I think, sis, you know, you have the questions. You have your doubts. You think to yourself on the pew, there’s got to be more to it than this. You think, well, how come I got to get the purity culture? Men aren’t wearing true love weights rings. They’re not getting these sermons, how is it that God would be so one-sided as to completely say, if you are a woman, you cannot be in leadership. You know, you feel called to preach. You know, you feel called to pastor. But because you’re a woman, your denomination doesn’t ordain women. There is no reason why an expansive God would limit God’s creation. That is simply the doing of finite, colonized, small minds. And you, darling one, are created in the image and likeness of God. God rejoices over you with singing. You are the apple of God’s eye. When you start to focus on the scriptures, that is not just embrace, but affirm and celebrate who you are, that’s when you realize. People have been cherry picking which scriptures they want to preach. Over and over and over again. Right. You got to think about why formerly enslaved folks were hearing slaves obey your masters. You got to think about why women are hearing. Women ought to keep quiet in the churches. When? The fact of the matter is, it had nothing to do with leadership roles in the church and everything to do with people asking questions during communal worship. And so there have been so many scriptures that have been taken out of context, that have been misrepresented. And it’s a part of a systemic plan. To make you feel small and less than. There is nothing small about you, sister. God is great and big. And if we can take it there, there are thousands of deities, honestly. So the fact that this tradition would make us shrink ourselves to say that there is only one way to be. And there’s only this one God, and this God is a man. And because you’re not a man, you can’t be God or godly, or godlike. It’s a falsehood. And you feel that in your gut, but you don’t want to lose your community. You don’t want to lose your social standing. You want somewhere to go on Thanksgiving dinner. I get it. Right. Taking a stand and liberating yourself from these systems is going to be there going to be some seasons of loneliness. It’s not all hunky dory, but I’m a witness that on the other side of it, there is so much transformation, healing and liberation. And I’m telling you, this is your moment to get your beauty for ashes. But you got to go put them ashes on first, child. You can’t skip this part.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 40:26.669
I love that. And when you talk about the other side of it. What does that look like now for you?

Lyvonne Briggs | 40:34.658
Ooh, joy, ease, flow, abundance. Not second guessing myself every five seconds. Not, I’m shrinking myself because I’m afraid that some vengeful God is gonna smite me every two seconds. I don’t wanna say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, wear the wrong thing. Child, God don’t care about what I wear. God don’t care about who I love. God wants to know,

Dr. Natalie Jones | 41:00.444
did you walk?

Lyvonne Briggs | 41:03.842
Did you stand for liberty, liberation for all, not just the people you like, right? Did you stand for justice, even in the face of powers of oppression? Did you love who I created you to be, right? You want to be outside voting and protesting and lobbying, and you on Twitter and Instagram, and you calling the powers that be to accountability. But then you don’t look at yourself in the mirror and say, worthy. You don’t look at your reflection and say Holy, and see beauty and see God. And I think God has a problem with that.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 41:41.098
It’s a lot of people that I think that would resonate with, where they can’t do those things. When you think about the younger version of yourself that couldn’t do those things, what do you think?

Lyvonne Briggs | 41:57.293
I think, little Lyvonne, you are enough. You are worthy beyond measure. Always have been, always will be. And there is nothing that you can do to make yourself unlovable. You are unconditionally loved and supported. And it may not come when you think it should, or when you want it to, but liberation will come. Because the fact of the matter is, in 2017, I was still living in the Bay Area. I don’t remember, but my mom’s siblings, Thanks. Found out about the abuse that I suffered at the hands of my father. And they kept asking me, why didn’t you tell me? I even had an elementary school teacher pose that question to me on Facebook. Stay off Facebook, y’all. Get on TikTok and Instagram. But my question to them was, why weren’t you a person I could tell? Right. Don’t put the onus on victims and survivors to come forward when we see what typically happens. Happens when people come forward. There’s victim shaming and blaming, slut shaming. Where were you? Why were you? How were, like, all of that? No, no, no. Don’t ask me why I didn’t tell you. Ask me why you weren’t someone I could tell because I was a child in all of this. And so there is nothing about this, that is my fault.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 43:19.294
Absolutely.

Lyvonne Briggs | 43:20.778
And that has made a big difference, too.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 43:24.263
Yeah. Finding your voice. Why weren’t you a person that I could tell?

Lyvonne Briggs | 43:28.889
Mm hmm.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 43:29.670
When you think back about that time, do you think there were people who knew and said nothing?

Lyvonne Briggs | 43:39.780
You know, if I’m completely honest, I will say yes. I think our intuition, our woman’s intuition and our knowingness lets us know.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 43:50.757
Absolutely.

Lyvonne Briggs | 43:51.569
So I feel like somebody, and even now that I’m saying this out loud, Dr. Natalie. It could go either way because I was one of those victims who I didn’t go. The drug way, the stripper way, the prostitute way, the promiscuous way. I went the valedictorian in sixth grade way.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 44:14.767
The overachiever.

Lyvonne Briggs | 44:16.673
I was the overachiever and my teachers were my safe space. But then I also think about how it could be, you know, 100 degrees middle of summer and I would be wrapped up. Cocooned in a blanket or sheet, like pressed up against the wall, that was right next to my bed. And so I feel like, did anyone see that? and be like, why is Lavon wrapped up like that? You know, but things also didn’t happen until later. Like the drunken boyfriend who ousted me. One time, we were watching TV on the couch and he went to put his hand on my thigh and I flinched. And I didn’t realize in the moment that that was a trauma response to the abuse that I had suffered as a child. So a lot of these things, remember, time is very fluid. So a lot of these things you’ll find coming up. Like flashbacks. Like, why am I being super triggered? When I first went to school, I started having nightmares about the abuse that I suffered. I had never had nightmares before that. So it’s just your body’s way of trying to purge, right? And saying, this thing is coming up because it has to come out. And so what we tend to do is, oh, nope, nope. I’m going to suppress that, or I’m fine. I’m going to go for a run. I’m going to go get another degree. I’m going to go fix somebody else’s problems.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 45:31.926
My last question for you is this. Given the nature of what you’ve experienced with that particular incident, and like you said, I’m sure there were more. How do you reconcile that with God?

Lyvonne Briggs | 45:57.294
God is pissed about it. My ancestors are pissed about it. And when I am in spaces where people. Are willing and able to, in the words of Dr. E.T. Hari Torre, to hold space for the full true story of who I am, who can hold space for my full truth, you know, not the glossed over one, not the dressed up one, not the, you know, forgive and forget one, but who are like, no, I’m going to go to the gook. And the mire with you. I will sit here and wail with you. I will hold you. I will say nothing and just let you talk. Those are the people that you surround yourself with. The people I like to say, with whom your soul can slouch, that there are people, religious leaders, lay leaders, therapists, friends, colleagues, acquaintances, other survivors, right? Who are willing to look at the Gook with you. And not only that, but who will get in it with you. But you have to be willing to at least look at it to know, oh, yeah, man, that was terrible. That was horrible. Not, okay, I’m okay. No, I’m over it. That’s not how it works. You know, there’s no need to gaslight your own self and pretend it’s not as bad as it is, because it can be better. But you got to look at it first.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 47:36.042
I love that. Thank you. And, you know, people listen to the show. They want to connect with you because they’re just so moved. Everything that you share, how can they find you? And also if you have anything coming up that we can support you with.

Lyvonne Briggs | 47:55.304
Yeah. Thank you so much for that. So my home base is levonbriggs.com, which is my personal website. I spend way too much time on Instagram at Lavon Briggs, also on TikTok at Lavon Briggs, across platforms. I’m on Twitter. Twitter has been neglected lately. I really just use Twitter to make posts that I put on Instagram, but you know, I’m there as well. If all of this feels resonant to you, then I would definitely invite you to tap in with my Sensual Faith series. It is, and, you know, Instagram live on First Sundays. I have my podcast, Sensual Faith podcast, and also Sensual Faith Academy, which is also known as Patreon in these digital streets. And so you can visit patreon.com Slash Lavon Briggs to sign up for the tier that feels good to you. And if you’re like, you know, Lyvonne, I really want to work one-on-one with you. I have a dream project. I have a spiritual practice I want to deepen, then you can. Do one-on-one spiritual life coaching with me as well.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 49:01.818
I love that. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.

Lyvonne Briggs | 49:06.328
Oh, you are so worthy, beloved. Thank you for having me and thank you for the work that you’re doing.

Dr. Natalie Jones | 49:10.656
Absolutely.

194. The Hidden Costs of Codependency and How to Heal; Featuring Shaketa Robinson-Bruce, LPC

Welcome to the seventh episode of the series “The Lost Episodes”. In this episode, Shakita Robinson Bruce, a licensed professional counselor, delves into the complexities of codependency and how childhood trauma, boundary injuries, and cultural expectations shape our relationships as adults. She shares insights on recognizing codependency, its impact on mental health, and ways to break free from these patterns. Tune in for an eye-opening conversation on healing and setting healthy boundaries!

Watch the video podcast on Youtube: A Date With Darkness

Email questions or comments to Dr. Jones admin@drnataliejones.com

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Visit the website for more information: https://www.adatewithdarkness.com

193. Attachment in Relationships; featuring Simone Sanders, MSW, RSW

Welcome to the sixth episode of the series “The Lost Episodes”. In this heartfelt episode, Simone shares her journey into therapy, driven by the need for more representation. She expertly discusses emotional regulation, the roots of attachment starting with our caregivers, and the complexities of cutting people off. A calm and insightful conversation you won’t want to miss!

Watch the video podcast on Youtube: A Date With Darkness

Email questions or comments to Dr. Jones admin@drnataliejones.com

Sign up for the free ebook on Red Flags in Your Relationships and the free weekly newsletter for tips about narcissistic abuse at www.drnataliejones.com

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Visit the website for more information: https://www.adatewithdarkness.com

192. Is Racism a Form of Narcissistic Abuse; Featuring Robyn Mourning

Welcome to the fifth episode of the series “The Lost Episodes”. In this powerful episode, we unpack the everyday realities of racial microaggressions and macroaggressions. Join us as we explore the psychological toll, the complexities of code-switching, and the broader societal impacts. A must-listen conversation on empathy, awareness, and resilience.

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Sign up for the free ebook on Red Flags in Your Relationships and the free weekly newsletter for tips about narcissistic abuse at www.drnataliejones.com

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Visit the website for more information: https://www.adatewithdarkness.com

191. Breaking Free from Situationships; featuring Ibbie Aromolaran

Welcome to the fourth episode of the series “The Lost Episodes”. Join Ibby (@sickofsituationship), a dating coach and therapist, as she unpacks attachment styles, “situationships,” and how to break free from toxic relationship patterns. Discover how to develop secure connections and navigate the impact of social media on your love life.

Watch the video podcast on Youtube: A Date With Darkness

Email questions or comments to Dr. Jones admin@drnataliejones.com

Sign up for the free ebook on Red Flags in Your Relationships and the free weekly newsletter for tips about narcissistic abuse at www.drnataliejones.com

Individual and group membership coaching sessions opening soon. Get on the mailing list to be the first to know here.

Visit the website for more information: https://www.adatewithdarkness.com